My thoughts are that it would be hard to prove breach of contract if the data
provided was totally unrelated to the company that you were contracted by and
you never mention their name nor hinted at who they were. I'm sort of in a
similar situation where I was the senior software engineer of an audit team and
had to examine the source code of a product. The audit was asked for by two
different companies due to the financial investment they were going to make in
the company providing the product.
Now I provide on my resume the name of the company that I auditted, but I list
the investing companies as 'unlisted companies due to confidentiality'. So
long as I don't disclose my findings or otherwise influence opinions of the
named company (such as by mentioning on whose behalf the audit was requested
by) none of the parties to the audit can cite disclosure of confidential
information or that I altered the financial viability of any of the companies.
Imho, data gathered not explicitly restricted by NDA nor able to affect the
parties involved in the contract in any way, shape, or form can not be laid
claim to by the parties (not that if they see a potential monetary gain from
that data that they will try to anyway under possible threat of legal action).
If you want to protect yourself further do not bill the client during the time
which the data of concern was found to completely insulate yourself from them
saying something like "but we paid for that data."
Geoff
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Jax Lion" <jv4l1n4@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:38:14
To:security-basics@securityfocus.com
Cc:"Warren V Camp" <wcamp@cox.net>,"Jason Thompson" <securitux@gmail.com>,
securityz@delahunty.com,"Scott Race" <srace@jdaarch.com>
Subject: Re: Bank Exploit
P.S.
As in any standard test engagement - results are confidential (signed
in contracts), so by informing company EFG - did you break the
confidentiality and contract with ABC?
On 7/26/07, Jax Lion <jv4l1n4@gmail.com> wrote:
In a scenario where you have been hired to test company ABC, in the
process you discovered that there is vulnerability in company EFG.
You inform company ABC of your findings, but should you inform company
EFG what you have discovered?
If company EFG is a client of company ABC, company ABC might* choose
not to divulge the finding to company EFG due to reasons of their own.
As a security professional, do you have an obligation to inform
company EFG of the finding, even though you were not hired to test?
----
On 7/26/07, Scott Race <srace@jdaarch.com> wrote:
Obviously there are many ways to look at this one.
The bottom line is you have discovered a security hole that the bank should
be aware of. Your letting the bank know will benefit them, but at cost for
your services. Will they think you are looking out for them, or will they
think you are just trying to justify a job?
It's all about communicating your INTENTION (as with everything in life for
that matter).
Approaching it like "I have hacked you, now pay me to fix it" is like
ransom.
If your intention is to help them, you need to clearly communicate that to
them, with the risk that they don't understand, in which case you need to be
ready to seriously explain in way they understand (we don't know your boss,
so only you know the way to communicate this).
As with all jobs, it comes down to communication. I've always felt a good
IT professional needs to cultivate both techincal skills AND people skills.
So, it's up to you. Can you communicate in a way they can understand and
TRUST? If so, go for it. If you are not confident then I would not suggest
you hold off.
________________________________
From: listbounce@securityfocus.com on behalf of Warren V Camp
Sent: Wed 7/25/2007 2:32 PM
To: Jason Thompson; Jax Lion
Cc: securityz@delahunty.com;
security-basics@securityfocus.com
Subject: Re: Bank Exploit
This does not sound good. On the surface it appears that a "good" hacker
wants to tell the bank that he/she has see evidence of "bad" hackers on
their system and that the "good" hacker wants to sell consulting services to
the bank. The "good" hacker could be in just as much trouble as the "bad"
hackers.
---- Jax Lion <jv4l1n4@gmail.com> wrote:
So Jason - what happened to your collegue?
IMHO - I don't think option 2 is a good idea. Questions will come up
such as - how did you discover the vulnerability in the first place.
What were you doing... and it all goes downhill from there.
I don't agree with keeping quiet either...
Is there a medium where we can report the "accidental discoveries"
without risk of prosecution? Like a hot tip line with the FBI or
something.
On 7/25/07, Jason Thompson <securitux@gmail.com> wrote:
Risky... is this person a security professional?
This has happened to one of my colleagues before as well. There are
two solutions that are possible:
1) Do not reveal this or tell anyone about it. Leave it be. As there
is this heightened sense of urgency among banks to thwart potential
attackers the person could be in trouble with the bank for simply
discovering the issue. It really all depends on the person he or she
deals with there. Not saying it would hold up in court, it likely
wouldn't, but anyone who has the ability to find exploits is generally
regarded in a dim light by those who are uneducated on the subject.
2) Notify the bank's incident response team / security staff, OFFER a
non-disclosure agreement to them saying that you will not disclose
this to anyone regardless of what actions the bank decides to take on
their vulnerability, and state that this was discovered by accident
and that he or she simply wants to notify them about the issue and IS
NOT seeking ANY SORT of compensation. If they are notified and it
follows with the statement 'I would be willing to help consult you on
the solution for a small compensation' it instantly becomes extortion
and this person will likely be thrown in jail.
I am not a lawyer by any means, I am simply speaking from past
experiences and what I have seen happen to those who did things the
right way and the wrong way.
Solution 2 is a lot easier if your friend's client works in
information security and holds federal clearances and security
designations. Real ones, not Cisco or something :)
-J
On 25 Jul 2007 13:34:29 -0000, securityz@delahunty.com
<securityz@delahunty.com> wrote:
Friend of mine (not me, really) is working with a client of his who
claims to have inadvertently discovered a few web exploits of several
financial institutions. Does anyone have any insights as to how this guy
could bring these to the attention of the organizations involved without
being seen as a hacker? His minimal goal is to help the institutions,
optimally he would like to consult to help them rectify the issues.
thx
Steve
--
Warren V. Camp, CPA, CISA, CDP
